darkicon
Administrator
Posts: 746
Registered: 6-24-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: I wasn't born with enough middle fingers.
|
![[*]](./images/darkicon/default_icon.gif) posted on 7-23-2006 at 20:40 |
|
|
Saint Noir
The Final Chapter of Saint Noir just hit the server.
Chapter 9 was a bit of a rush job, and so there may be some quality issues with it. It should play fine, but I might go back and add some of the
sound effects that I didn't have time to put in. Or I might leave it the way it is. There're probably more typos than usual, and the timing
may be just a tad bit off... but hopefully none of that will be enough to distract you from what I hope is a pretty good ending.
Soooo.... how did ya like the story?
I am not a Character.
I am Real.
And I know where you Dream. |
|
|
nate
Wandering Fiend
Posts: 61
Registered: 9-28-2005
Location: Maryland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
| posted on 7-24-2006 at 09:25 |
|
|
I liked it. I have personal issues with the whole hierarchy of hell thing, based on my personal beliefs, but this story stuck with it's
interpretation and made sense. I found this story much easier to follow the plot in than the previous BODP story. I have far fewer questions on this
one, and the few I have aren't really relevant to the plot line as much as asking for more detail.
The whole concept of summoning the Father was a good idea.
I'm looking forward to the next story.
|
|
|
Partysan
Lost Soul
Posts: 3
Registered: 7-24-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: agressive
|
| posted on 7-24-2006 at 09:29 |
|
|
Well - and another time my beloved book of dark places spread the truth:
Jehova's Reign is a reign of injustice.
By regretting his deeds Lucifer is clearly a less "evil" person than demons like Baal, Belial or all the others. Nevertheless by sending him back to
hell in human shape he is punished much harder than them and they even get a kind of reward: the opportunity to torture him. As the only of the old
ones holding on to Jehova I'd expected a better treatment (not heaven of course, in this case Jehova's and the Priests opinion is kind of
justified).
This way I don't really like the ending, a great story though, and a really interesting way of seeing Lucifer. I still hope for him in the next parts
of the story, holding on to the "Not the End".
|
|
|
LanceMan
Shrieking Phantasm
Posts: 148
Registered: 6-26-2002
Location: I'm not quite there yet.
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
| posted on 7-25-2006 at 14:54 |
|
|
Partysan -- I disagree with your interpitation. If you go by the story, and not by your personal beliefs, the people that were "enemies of god"
found that they were wrong when faced with the "truth". As such, if you just follow this arch, "The Father" is forgiving, and gave Lucifer a very
fair chance to prove humility.
He failed.
No, you can say the other demons got a reward...but lets say I go around with my gang, rape, murder and pilliage. I'm caught, sent to jail. I
escape, and as a way to attone for my crimes, I kill off the gangs contacts that are still out causing trouble...
I'm still going back to jail when I get caught. And my former gang is probably gonna be pretty pissed off. Am I any less evil? What should be
done, should I be freed/reward even though I haven't really changed? Is my former gang really being rewarded by my being thrown back in prison?
In this case, being sent back no longer as lord of hell, perhaps he's being given a chance to learn humility, and change himself. Maybe its a done
deal and his chances are up...in either case, its is justifiable that he be sent back to "prison".
DI -- good build up, good ending. still luv'n "teH Shocker"
|
|
|
WeREwOLf
Shrieking Phantasm
Posts: 139
Registered: 5-4-2004
Location: Land of the northern rednecks
Member Is Offline
Mood: ...
|
| posted on 7-25-2006 at 21:42 |
|
|
Perfect Ending!
Lanceman, I couldn't have come up with a more fitting analogy. Well said.
Given the subject matter, I thought the story -- especially the ending -- was handled quite tastefully, especially considering that it's (mostly) a
grim horror story. No doubt some will nitpick due to their own personal beliefs, and I certainly won't argue with them, that'd be a no-win debate
for both sides. Personally, I thought it was handled very well. Great ending to a great story.
Regarding the ending, um, DI... are you planning on having this spin off into a whole huge Crusade-sized epic storyline? Cuz the way
it ended, it certainly looks as if it could go that direction. Instability in Hell, demonic hordes that could be getting outa control, and a cop and a
dead priest as the heroes... yeah, you could do something big with this. Frickin' HUGE.
<HINT>Here's hopin'...</HINT>
The act of censorship is always more dangerous than whatever is being censored.
|
|
|
Partysan
Lost Soul
Posts: 3
Registered: 7-24-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: agressive
|
| posted on 7-26-2006 at 07:20 |
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by LanceMan
Partysan -- I disagree with your interpitation. If you go by the story, and not by your personal beliefs, the people that were "enemies of god"
found that they were wrong when faced with the "truth". As such, if you just follow this arch, "The Father" is forgiving, and gave Lucifer a very
fair chance to prove humility.
He failed.
|
That's correct. I don't deny that Lucifer got a fair chance and failed. I actually think thatr the way it is done is a great and convincing one.
| Quote: | No, you can say the other demons got a reward...but lets say I go around with my gang, rape, murder and pilliage. I'm caught,
sent to jail. I escape, and as a way to attone for my crimes, I kill off the gangs contacts that are still out causing trouble...
I'm still going back to jail when I get caught. And my former gang is probably gonna be pretty pissed off. Am I any less evil? What should be
done, should I be freed/reward even though I haven't really changed? Is my former gang really being rewarded by my being thrown back in prison?
|
You shouldn't be freed or rewarded, no way. But I think the analogy is just good, not perfect. Lucifer didn't go around killing the other fallen
angels. He didn't kill to remove satanics but to summon God, because it is the only chance to talk to him. I don't interprete his murders as a try
to compensate his sins. He probably just took satanics as victims, because the ritual is made for convincing non-christians of the greatness of God.
They are humans too, of course, but this is actually the mistake Lucifer makes, his pride of beeing so much higher then the worthless mortal.
In your analogy, you would understand, you did something wrong, but you cannot tell the judge, because he does not want to listen to you. So you wait
many years in jail (Lucifer waited longer than earth exists, until he began to murder) and then, because you are so desperate, you start slaughtering
the watch dogs, to get his attention.
Nevertheless Lucifer shows repetance, what makes him less evil than the other fallen ones (your gang mates, who still consider murdering, raping etc
as ok) and so should be punished less hard than the others. And yes, I consider the opportunity of revenge as a kind of reward.
| Quote: | | In this case, being sent back no longer as lord of hell, perhaps he's being given a chance to learn humility, and change
himself. Maybe its a done deal and his chances are up...in either case, its is justifiable that he be sent back to "prison".
|
I like this idea. If this suggestion would come true, I'd think of it as an acceptable solution. Nevertheless, I think the demons of hell should be
punished a bit more, than just having to live there and bringing evil from there. As I interprete their behavoir, there is no punishment in it, for
them.
|
|
|
eduardo
Howling Freak
Posts: 856
Registered: 8-16-2002
Location: São Mateus - ES - Brasil
Member Is Offline
Mood: Calmer
|
| posted on 7-26-2006 at 13:03 |
|
|
Like it
The larger amount of text did not reduce my fun, actually, DI might try an ilustrated history like Alix of Dreams or Grotesque and it will be good
while demanding less time to make.
About the punishment of the devil, it is simple. He wanted to escape hell, but he was not ashamed of his past actions.
The devil acted as a psychotic murderer all the time, this is not a reason to go to heaven.
Also, Lucifer could have just gone to any holy man, and he knows most of them, and begged them to pray for his forgiveness. Instead he tried to show
to God that he was a valuable ally and that he would help God. Difficult to do this when you are dealing with a being that is omnipotent.
Now, on the other hand God could be more lenient just allowing the devil to be on Earth or sending he to another place (limbo?) but the argument that
a being full of pride and of murder deserve hell is consistent.
And, what is the plan of God? Wouldn´t whatever it is make life for those down there even worst?
Detail: perhaps hell is not for punishment, but for redemption. This would explain sending Lucifer there.
"An egg is a world, to be born you must break a world."
Herman Hesse in the Wolf from the Hills
|
|
|
LanceMan
Shrieking Phantasm
Posts: 148
Registered: 6-26-2002
Location: I'm not quite there yet.
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
| posted on 7-26-2006 at 18:59 |
|
|
"Nevertheless Lucifer shows repetance,"
--Really, I didn't see that...what I saw was a guy that didn't like his prison cell and was hoping to find a way out. There is a big difference
between repenting and just saying "I'm sorry."
Example:
"I'm am in angush that my poor judgement that night to drive after I had been drinking. I accept full responsibility for my actions. And though I
know I am undeserving right now, I hope to earn the families forgiveness. If I could, I would gladly take that little girls place. I'm so
sorry."
"I'm sorry that the girl died, but if her parents would have been paying attention, they would have seen she was way too close to the sidewalk. Who
lets their kids stay up that late anyways?"
In the confines of this story I see lucifer as being "sorry", not for what he's done, but because he's in hell.
"what makes him less evil than the other fallen ones"
--Well, Manson a sicko serial murderer...but he's no Hitler....
--BTK did some pretty bad things, but since he had a family he's not as evil as the Son of Sam...
--He only raped that four year old, he didn't kill her...so he can't be as bad as....
ok, so hopefully you can see where I'm going with these...
"If this suggestion would come true, I'd think of it as an acceptable solution."
Welcome to the world of fiction...hero's can die, evil can triumph, and if you don't like it, write your own story. I hope I don't sound really
bad by saying that, I don't mean it in a condisending matter, but some people pick a common litterary character, and stick with them in any story.
In this case, satan/devil/lucifer/etc. It's not the same guy in every story, and even the background of the character, while similar, is ussually
different.
I personally didn't like "The devil when down to Georgia." Why would he bother going to Georgia? If the devil owned Georgia he'd sell it off as
cheap as possible and find a spot to lease in hell... 
|
|
|
darkicon
Administrator
Posts: 746
Registered: 6-24-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: I wasn't born with enough middle fingers.
|
| posted on 7-26-2006 at 20:45 |
|
|
Sympathy for the Devil?
Cool conversation here, guys. I wasn't expecting a philosophical debate. I'll try to stay out of it, though, due to my "insider" status.
But to answer the folks who were wondering about if there will be a continuation of the story: Maybe, sort of. "Saint Noir" is finished.
It's done. Unlike a certain pirate movie I saw recently, the story had a beginning a middle, and a definite ending that wrapped up the plot.
Lucifer's fate was planned from the beginning, and from the beginning my plan was to create a situation that I could use to spawn future stories.
Those stories will NOT be sequels to "Saint Noir," however. Their only relationship to SN will be that they take place in the same "universe"
and that if SN hadn't ended the way it did, then the story might not be taking place. As for Lucifer... if the BoDP project continues long
enough, then you'll see him again. Probably several times. I don't see him as the main character in any of the stories I've got planned, but
you might catch a glimpse of him here or there and, given enough time, you'll see the full story of what happens to him. But the BoDP project is
not about Lucifer; I've got bigger fish to fry. Much bigger fish.
The way I ended things with Kennedy and Pierce was a spur of the moment thing. Pierce's fate, like Lucifer's, was sealed as soon as I got the
original idea for the story. Originally, Kennedy's and Pierce's final conversation was just going to be a goodby. But as I was writing the
final lines of dialog, I decided to set things up for any number of possible stories that I may or may not do. I still "may or may not" do them,
but none of them have anything to do with Lucifer. Yes, it did occur to me that Kennedy and Pierce almost have a Jason/Donovan thing going on, and
Kennedy's earlier observation that in all these years nobody has ever TRIED shooting a demon was a nod in that direction. Will you see them again?
You will probably SEE Kennedy at some point somewhere, but as for whether he'll be the main character in a story or not... still undecided. But I
am well aware of the possibilities. Heck, for that matter you might see Jason and Donovan turn up in a story! (note that SN takes place in an
entirely different universe than Crusade.)
As for the ongoing philosophical debate, all I'll say is this: The story was about forgiveness. It was an exploration of a question that I have
asked myself lots of times... could the devil be forgiven if he wanted it. Why or why not? In Saint Noir, the way Lucifer tried to obtain that
forgiveness pretty much made it impossible for him to get it. As for whether he actually deserved what he got, you'll have to decide that on your
own. And one more thing... did nobody notice that big-ass sword?
PS. I wonder what happened with the book...
I am not a Character.
I am Real.
And I know where you Dream. |
|
|
Partysan
Lost Soul
Posts: 3
Registered: 7-24-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: agressive
|
| posted on 7-27-2006 at 08:48 |
|
|
@Lanceman
I cannot say anything about your first statemant, because it is a personal interpretation. I don't think so, but even if you'd be righter than me,
Lucifer says one true word: The human can beg for forgiveness, no matter what they have done. It is as a dictatorship: If the citizens think, the
dictator is a bad man, he won't care, because they are harmless. But if his general will rebel, he has to kill him, because he is dangerous.
But: "--Well, Manson a sicko serial murderer...but he's no Hitler...."
Hitler had an army... What would Manson have done with an army?
It's a question of might, and how you use it. Lucifer was the Lord of hell, and didn't use this power against the human. He could have done, and
they think he did, but he didn't. The other demons did.
"--He only raped that four year old, he didn't kill her...so he can't be as bad as...."
If he only stole her pocket money, you'd say he wasn't that bad, too.
"Welcome to the world of fiction...hero's can die, evil can triumph, and if you don't like it, write your own story."
I didn't mean to say I dislike the story. I think the punishment is not justified, but in my personal opinion, the christian God is not a beeing that
is a friend of logic or justice. I think, God would have done exactly this. But I dislike what God does...
@eduardo: "The devil acted as a psychotic murderer all the time"
I can't see that.
"Also, Lucifer could have just gone to any holy man, and he knows most of them, and begged them to pray for his forgiveness. Instead he tried to show
to God that he was a valuable ally and that he would help God. Difficult to do this when you are dealing with a being that is omnipotent."
Exactly. That is the point, where Lucifer fails. But is it worse than torturing the humans all the time, as the other fallen angels do? I don't think
so. Because of that, I think he should be punished less hard, than them.
"perhaps hell is not for punishment, but for redemption. This would explain sending Lucifer there."
It's the same as Lanceman said in his first post. I like the idea.
|
|
|
|
